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 The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat

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Craig S.



Male Number of posts : 8
Age : 58
Location : Hawaii
Registration date : 2009-01-28

PostSubject: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:00 pm

Hello All:

I continue to be intrigued by the Dedick photo of the Kid. We will probably never know the story behind it, it still leaves me wondering how that photo (tin type) happened and why Billy is dressed the way he is. From all of the descriptions of the Kid, they always mention him being well dressed with a wide brimmed hat described as a sombrero or sugar loaf style. I have never seen a description of the Kid that described the hat he is wearing in the Dedrick photo. In my opinion, his clothes look like he just came in off the trail and had not had the chance to clean up yet and put on his “town” clothes. But where did that hat come from? Was it a photographer’s prop? Did it belong to someone else? When was the photo taken? Was it during the Lincoln County War, just following the end of the LCW or much later? The expression on his face likes somewhat taunting. Kind of like a “You boys can never touch me” look. Who was that expression intended for? The Dolan-Murphy bunch or someone else? I think it’s a little interesting that the Kid’s hat in the photo resembles the hat that James Dolan is wearing in his photo with back shootin’ Bob Ollinger that is on Ms. Brother’s website under Biography/Last Days, only the top is pushed in, kind of like Ollinger’s hat is in the photo with Dolan. Could the Kid have intentionally “borrowed” James Dolan’s hat and thus be thumbing his nose at them in the photo? Do you all have any thoughts on that?

Craig

P.S. Thanks Ms. Brothers for this wonderful site and the opportunity to engage with you and your esteemed members on my favorite topic, Billy the Kid!
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Dave
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Male Number of posts : 59
Age : 71
Location : Rockwall, TX
Registration date : 2009-01-28

PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:14 pm

Craig...I'll have to scrounge through some books and articles to give you a better feel for the Dedrick tintype but like you I wonder about the hat...possibly borrowed from the photographer or just "borrowed" period. One interesting fact however about the clothing worn in the tintype....if you have access to a sharp, cleaned up version of the tintype check out the sweater he is wearing...not a great fit and also look closely at one of the lapels on the sleeve and you will notice the initials PM...Pete Maxwell??? Paulita Maxwell?? quien sabe??

dave

p.s. if you need a good quality, cleaned up versiuon of the dedrick, email me and I'll send one on to you
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Dave
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Male Number of posts : 59
Age : 71
Location : Rockwall, TX
Registration date : 2009-01-28

PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:15 pm

p.s....what is your opinion of the 2 photos in my avitar??
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Bronte
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Female Number of posts : 53
Age : 52
Location : Greenville,South Carolina
Registration date : 2009-01-28

PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:35 pm

Here is some little tidbits that I read in an article about the tintype.The black pull over shirt that Billy is wearing would have came from a Chinese clothing store.It would have been very expensive and really hard to find in 19th century New Mexico.If you look at it closely you can see the white snake on it which is some kind of chinese symbol.Also there is the gambler's ring that he is wearing that was also a very expensive item so its anyones guess at how Billy purchased such material pleasures.The boots that he is wearing according to the article are actually on the wrong foot.The reason for that is because shoes at that time still didn't come in actual shoe sizes.So when you bought boots/shoes you had to wear them a while in order for them to conform to your foot size and appeartantly (SP?) Billy's boots still had not molded to his feet and he couldn't tell the difference from his left or his right.It was actually very common to mark the letters on the the boot so you would know which was the left or right.Hey I didn't write the article so I'm not sure about the boots so maybe someone on here can explain it better.The hat as most people tend to believe was just a prop hat that he barrowed from the photographer.One more thing if you look closely you can see a gold watch and chain that he has attached to his shirt.According to Dr.Hoyt Billy bummed it from him so that he could give it to his sweetheart (paulita Maxwell) even Dr. Hoyt named her as being Billy's girl so maybe the romance was the real deal and Paulita just kept it a secret from the public. Smile


Last edited by Bronte on Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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linda J
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Female Number of posts : 44
Age : 64
Location : Indiana
Registration date : 2009-02-03

PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:42 pm

Bronte wrote:
Here is some little tidbits that I read in an article about the tintype.The black pull over shirt that Billy is wearing would have came from a Chinese clothing store.It would have been very expensive and really hard to find in 19th century New Mexico.If you look at it closely you can see the white snake on it which is some kind of chinese symbol.Also there is the gambler's ring that he is wearing that was also a very expensive item so its anyones guess at how Billy purchased such material pleasures.The boots that he is wearing according to the article are actually on the wrong foot.The reason for that is because shoes at that time still didn't come in actual shoe sizes.So when you bought them you and put them on and they would eventually conform to your foot size and appeartantly (SP?) Billy's boots still had not molded to his feet and he couldn't tell the difference from his left to his right.It was actually very common to mark the letters on the the boot so you would know which was left or right.Hey I didn't write the article so I'm not sure about the boots so maybe someone on here can explain it better.The hat as most people tend to believe was just a prop hat that he barrowed from the photographer.One more thing if you look closely you can see a gold watch and chain that he has attached to his shirt.According to Dr.Hoyt Billy bummed it from him so that he could give it to his sweetheart (paulita Maxwell) even Dr. Hoyt named her as being Billy's girl so maybe the romance was the real deal and Paulita just kept it a secret from the public. Smile




Lol at all those old west outlaws etc running around with their shoes on the wrong foot. Laughing
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Craig S.



Male Number of posts : 8
Age : 58
Location : Hawaii
Registration date : 2009-01-28

PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:01 pm

Dave:

I can certainly see some similarities. I agree with alot of the previous discussions that I have read, wherein most folks think there has got to be some other photos of the Kid somewhere. Perhaps the photo in your avitar is one. I have to admit that for some reason every time I see that de Aragon photo I get a chill. I don't know what it is, maybe the eyes. They seem to be looking right through you. Who knows if it really is a photo of the Kid, but it sure gives me a weird feeling.

As far as the Dedrick photo, I still wonder if he stole little Jimmy Dolan's hat as a prank. Would seem like the Kid's sense of humor.

By the way, could I get your email address, if you are still able to provide a cleaned up version of the Dedrick photo?

Craig
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Dave
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:12 am

sure thing Craig
dspoon2@tx.rr.com

re: the other photo was a 1" x 1" photo found in Paulita Maxwells album a few years ago by one of her decendants, Luz Jaramillo...gg grandaughter I think..when you consider that this little photo had an actual connection to Paulita Maxwell it tends to lend at least a bit of provinence that none of the other "alledged" photos including the De Aragon can claim...also a case in point is that nearly all of us strike the same facial pose in our photos...now compare the almost identical degree of head tilt and other very similar facial similarities and I believe it makes a very, very strong case for this being an actual photo of Billy "Eres tu, chivato!!!"

more tidbits on the Dedrick: from Bob Boze Bells's Illustrated Life and times of BTK:
behind Billy's right foot can be seen a leg of a stand used for stability during long exposures
while developing the wet plate, the photographer handled the bottom corners leaving his thumbprints. Four exposures were on the ferrotype and the image was reversed, leading to the erroneous assumption that Billy was left handed
a hand of the photo assitant can be seen holding the light reflector.
phoito experts think the design on Billys bib shirt is a nautical anchor (which appears to be a watch and chain)

I sure would like to know more about Billys "get up"...i.e. what was his and what was "props" or borrowed clothing...the sweater with PM sewn on the lapel especially intrigues me

hope this has helped a bit
dave
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DonnaT



Female Number of posts : 13
Age : 66
Location : Forest Lake,MN
Registration date : 2009-01-28

PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:56 am

The design on the shirt Billy is wearing in the famous photo actually has a nautical theme. On the cover of Philip Rasch's book, the drawing clearly shows the design to be that of an anchor with an ornate rope twinning around it. This can also be seen more obviously in reproductions of the tintype that are clearer or more enhanced for clariety.

I have never read anywhere, a description of that shirt, but once you know what is really there, it becomes clear to see.

The cover of Rashc's book "Gunsmoke in Lincoln County" is where this drawing I mention appears. It's quite an entertaining drawing done by Gary Zaboly and depicts many of the Lincoln Cty personnel like John Tunstall, JJ Dolan, Bob Olinger, and others.
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Dave
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Age : 71
Location : Rockwall, TX
Registration date : 2009-01-28

PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:51 am

Hey Donna...where did you purchase your Rasch book just referred to??

dave
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DonnaT



Female Number of posts : 13
Age : 66
Location : Forest Lake,MN
Registration date : 2009-01-28

PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:20 pm

Dave.........I ordered a few years ago from the NOLA website, but of course now NOLA and WOLA are the WWHA. I went to the WWHA website and couldn't find a place to order the book.

The book was distributed by Western Publication in Stillwater, OK (1-800-749-3369) with copyright by The National Association for Outlaw and Lawman History, Inc. (NOLA)

You might try finding it on Abebooks or some other rare book site, or try calling Bob Pugh at Trail to Yesterday books in Tucson, AZ. I can't find his number right now but he is a VERY GOOD source for these type of books.

I'd love to have a print of the cover cause that painting really brings those historical characters to life.
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Dave
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Age : 71
Location : Rockwall, TX
Registration date : 2009-01-28

PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:12 am

thanks Donna...sure good to see you here on this site...I think I've purchased from Abebooks when I purchased my copy of Frontier Doctor by Henry Hoyt.

dave
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Russell Burrows
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Male Number of posts : 86
Age : 83
Location : Windsor Colorado
Registration date : 2009-01-22

PostSubject: Re: The Dedrick photo and the Kid's hat   Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:22 pm

Dave wrote:
Craig...I'll have to scrounge through some books and articles to give you a better feel for the Dedrick tintype but like you I wonder about the hat...possibly borrowed from the photographer or just "borrowed" period. One interesting fact however about the clothing worn in the tintype....if you have access to a sharp, cleaned up version of the tintype check out the sweater he is wearing...not a great fit and also look closely at one of the lapels on the sleeve and you will notice the initials PM...Pete Maxwell??? Paulita Maxwell?? quien sabe??

dave

p.s. if you need a good quality, cleaned up versiuon of the dedrick, email me and I'll send one on to you

Howdy
Dave old buddyt:

I would sure like to see the cleaned up photo if you wouldn't mind sending it to me. My e-mail addy is
burrows@greeleynet.com

Thanks pard
Russ
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