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 not so smart after all

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Russell Burrows
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PostSubject: not so smart after all   Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:48 pm

I am still of the opinion that BTK was not as smart as some want to to claim otherwise, he would not have hung around Lincolin County, waiting to get hung.

Russ
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Marcelle Brothers
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:36 pm

It is puzzling to try and comprehend why Billy didn't lick it out of New Mexico after his escape from Lincoln. He was correct in believing that the town’s people would not mob him or form a posse to go after him, so he took his time leaving the area. It's understandable that he would go up to Fort Sumner for supplies, money, or a fresh horse where he had friends, but to stay and hang out like he did is just about the most foolish thing he ever did.

Did he truly believe that if he just laid low for awhile, the law would forget about him and he could come out of hiding and live in the area freely? Or was he waiting for the heat to die down because it would be safer for him to travel? Or was he just plain stubborn to leave the only place he could call home?

I don’t think Billy was dumb, he had shown moments throughout his life of having intelligence and street smarts, but I do believe he was naive and overly confident. He trusted the wrong people and believed everyone in Fort Sumner loved him and would protect him. I think he may have been reluctant to leave the area because he felt safe there.

If there was one question I could ask Billy the Kid, it would be “why did you stay in the Fort Sumner area for so long?” Was it fear, stubbornness, or really over a woman? I guess we won’t know. scratch
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stevenz
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:48 pm

Marcelle Brothers wrote:
It is puzzling to try and comprehend why Billy didn't lick it out of New Mexico after his escape from Lincoln. He was correct in believing that the town’s people would not mob him or form a posse to go after him, so he took his time leaving the area. It's understandable that he would go up to Fort Sumner for supplies, money, or a fresh horse where he had friends, but to stay and hang out like he did is just about the most foolish thing he ever did.

Did he truly believe that if he just laid low for awhile, the law would forget about him and he could come out of hiding and live in the area freely? Or was he waiting for the heat to die down because it would be safer for him to travel? Or was he just plain stubborn to leave the only place he could call home?

I don’t think Billy was dumb, he had shown moments throughout his life of having intelligence and street smarts, but I do believe he was naive and overly confident. He trusted the wrong people and believed everyone in Fort Sumner loved him and would protect him. I think he may have been reluctant to leave the area because he felt safe there.

If there was one question I could ask Billy the Kid, it would be “why did you stay in the Fort Sumner area for so long?” Was it fear, stubbornness, or really over a woman? I guess we won’t know. scratch

Good post marcelle the kid showed a quick mind through his career and i don,t think it is accurate to call him stupid but yes i think naive and over confident in an accurate assessment.

He said himself he didn,t believe garrett could get him at Sumner because of the friends he had there he had no idea about the enemies he had there conspiring aainst him.

He also showed a trait which is common in offenders to this day and that is to not leave the area that is familier to them and people ask why is this and it is because of simple human need,these guys need a support base they need food and shelter just like everyone else and like everyone they need friends and it over rides everything else.

People always talk about the kid not leaving fort Sumner but Bill Doolin who rode with the Dalton Gang then formed him own gang later on did the same thing he was looking at the death penalty and escaped from jail but he went back to see his wife and the law was waiting for him and he was killed and he had to know he was taking a risk going back to see his wife but he did it because of simple human need she was his wife and emotion is a powerful thing and it can over rode more sensible thoughts and Bill Doolin certainly showed through his career that he also was a quick minded capable outlaw.
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Russell Burrows
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:56 pm

Marcelle Brothers wrote:
It is puzzling to try and comprehend why Billy didn't lick it out of New Mexico after his escape from Lincoln. He was correct in believing that the town’s people would not mob him or form a posse to go after him, so he took his time leaving the area. It's understandable that he would go up to Fort Sumner for supplies, money, or a fresh horse where he had friends, but to stay and hang out like he did is just about the most foolish thing he ever did.

Did he truly believe that if he just laid low for awhile, the law would forget about him and he could come out of hiding and live in the area freely? Or was he waiting for the heat to die down because it would be safer for him to travel? Or was he just plain stubborn to leave the only place he could call home?

I don’t think Billy was dumb, he had shown moments throughout his life of having intelligence and street smarts, but I do believe he was naive and overly confident. He trusted the wrong people and believed everyone in Fort Sumner loved him and would protect him. I think he may have been reluctant to leave the area because he felt safe there.

If there was one question I could ask Billy the Kid, it would be “why did you stay in the Fort Sumner area for so long?” Was it fear, stubbornness, or really over a woman? I guess we won’t know. scratch

Good points Marcelle. I have long believed that Billy was actually from right there in New Mexico, not New York or Indiana. That would be another strong reason for hanging around....Family. There is no proof of that but just something I have thought about for quite awhile.

Russ
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Marcelle Brothers
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:06 pm

stevenz wrote:
He also showed a trait which is common in offenders to this day and that is to not leave the area that is familier to them and people ask why is this and it is because of simple human need,these guys need a support base they need food and shelter just like everyone else and like everyone they need friends and it over rides everything else.

People always talk about the kid not leaving fort Sumner but Bill Doolin who rode with the Dalton Gang then formed him own gang later on did the same thing he was looking at the death penalty and escaped from jail but he went back to see his wife and the law was waiting for him and he was killed and he had to know he was taking a risk going back to see his wife but he did it because of simple human need she was his wife and emotion is a powerful thing and it can over rode more sensible thoughts and Bill Doolin certainly showed through his career that he also was a quick minded capable outlaw.

I had also heard that offenders, particular young ones, return to the scene of the crime and stay close to their neighborhood. Even police chases sometimes end in the same place where it started. Since Billy was now alone, he wanted to stay close to his friends and he simply procrastinated about leaving the territory for good. Unfortunately, he wore out his welcome with the Maxwells’ and Pete tipped Garrett off on where Billy was.

Boy, if Billy new that Pete Maxwell was one of those that betrayed him, I imagine it would’ve been a shocker.
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Russell Burrows
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:54 pm

Marcelle Brothers wrote:
stevenz wrote:
He also showed a trait which is common in offenders to this day and that is to not leave the area that is familier to them and people ask why is this and it is because of simple human need,these guys need a support base they need food and shelter just like everyone else and like everyone they need friends and it over rides everything else.

People always talk about the kid not leaving fort Sumner but Bill Doolin who rode with the Dalton Gang then formed him own gang later on did the same thing he was looking at the death penalty and escaped from jail but he went back to see his wife and the law was waiting for him and he was killed and he had to know he was taking a risk going back to see his wife but he did it because of simple human need she was his wife and emotion is a powerful thing and it can over rode more sensible thoughts and Bill Doolin certainly showed through his career that he also was a quick minded capable outlaw.

I had also heard that offenders, particular young ones, return to the scene of the crime and stay close to their neighborhood. Even police chases sometimes end in the same place where it started. Since Billy was now alone, he wanted to stay close to his friends and he simply procrastinated about leaving the territory for good. Unfortunately, he wore out his welcome with the Maxwells’ and Pete tipped Garrett off on where Billy was.

Boy, if Billy new that Pete Maxwell was one of those that betrayed him, I imagine it would’ve been a shocker.

Yes Marcelle, I believe you are right that it was Pete who snitched on Billy but, I can't say as I blame him if he did.

Russ
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Paul O'Brien aka paulo
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

I believe Sab(v)al Gutierrez shopped Billy.The Kid was romancing his wife Celsa ,who also was Garret's sister-in-law.Tellingly,Garret told Poe he knew the location of a woman's house in Fort Sumner where the Kid might be found entering or leaving during the night.All the other yarns as to how Garrett found out the Kid was hanging around the Fort are obfuscation designed to protect Sab(v) al from possible revenge.After the Kid's death Garrett,Poe and McKinney had to stay forted up in Maxwell's to avoid retribution.For a cuckolded husband Sab(v)al had the supreme gratification of sitting on his wife's lover's inquest jury panel:Garrett put him there to repay him.

Pick the bones out of this theory.....

We need a new Shakespeare to write up the whole fabulous story.
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Marcelle Brothers
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Fri May 01, 2009 7:03 am

Quite honestly, after seeing pics of Paulita compared to Celsa, I think that's more of a possibility. Then again, with a ladies-man like Billy the Kid, he was probably messing around with both.

That's a valid point Paul. I personally find it hard to buy into the whole Billy and Paulita romance. Although, there are different stories on who Billy was staying with the night he was killed, Celsa Gutierrez is a more likely verison.

A recollection just popped in my head and I could be totally wrong here, but wasn't Celsa rumored to have a child fathered by Billy? Was it Candido? Neutral

I need to dust off my bookshelf and look into it. study
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linda J
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Fri May 01, 2009 1:18 pm

Marcelle Brothers wrote:
It is puzzling to try and comprehend why Billy didn't lick it out of New Mexico after his escape from Lincoln. He was correct in believing that the town’s people would not mob him or form a posse to go after him, so he took his time leaving the area. It's understandable that he would go up to Fort Sumner for supplies, money, or a fresh horse where he had friends, but to stay and hang out like he did is just about the most foolish thing he ever did.

Did he truly believe that if he just laid low for awhile, the law would forget about him and he could come out of hiding and live in the area freely? Or was he waiting for the heat to die down because it would be safer for him to travel? Or was he just plain stubborn to leave the only place he could call home?

I don’t think Billy was dumb, he had shown moments throughout his life of having intelligence and street smarts, but I do believe he was naive and overly confident. He trusted the wrong people and believed everyone in Fort Sumner loved him and would protect him. I think he may have been reluctant to leave the area because he felt safe there.

If there was one question I could ask Billy the Kid, it would be “why did you stay in the Fort Sumner area for so long?” Was it fear, stubbornness, or really over a woman? I guess we won’t know. scratch






I still think alot of it was his youth,that and maybe a little arrogance mixed in. Maybe he was in love too. Who really knows?
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stevenz
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Mon May 04, 2009 7:43 am

Paul O'Brien aka paulo wrote:
I believe Sab(v)al Gutierrez shopped Billy.The Kid was romancing his wife Celsa ,who also was Garret's sister-in-law.Tellingly,Garret told Poe he knew the location of a woman's house in Fort Sumner where the Kid might be found entering or leaving during the night.All the other yarns as to how Garrett found out the Kid was hanging around the Fort are obfuscation designed to protect Sab(v) al from possible revenge.After the Kid's death Garrett,Poe and McKinney had to stay forted up in Maxwell's to avoid retribution.For a cuckolded husband Sab(v)al had the supreme gratification of sitting on his wife's lover's inquest jury panel:Garrett put him there to repay him.

Pick the bones out of this theory.....

We need a new Shakespeare to write up the whole fabulous story.

I,ve got a book Billy The Kid his life And Legend by Jon Tuska and i can,t find the page at the moment but it states that Leon Metz was told by kip Mckinneys son that his father had told him that Pete Maxwell was the informer,Kip Mckinney was with Garrett when the kid was killed.
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Mon May 04, 2009 6:14 pm

Billy considered his "friends" there in Sumner as his adoptive family.Thats how I've always felt.He had a pattern of latching on to a group of people and becoming totally devoted to them.I think it was Frank Coe who said that Billy would never go very far from the area that he would always work his way back home to the people he considered his family.That does make sense Billy was abandoned at such a young age I'm sure he wanted to find a place where he could call home and have friends that he could count on when he needed them.However it appears that some of the people he selected for his "adpotive family" were untrustworthy.I'm still not sure if I believe that Celsa was the woman that he was supposed to be staying with that night because there is no real proof to the claim so I'm on the fence about where he was sleeping.The sad part about that night is that we'll never know for sure what really happened because its been lost in time.
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Thu May 07, 2009 6:44 pm

I think Fort Sumner was his "safe haven", his comfort zone. Most outlaws had them. Even most of today's criminals get a complaceny about them where they think that law enforcement will never catch up to them. But as we all know, they eventually do. It may take a while, but they always catch up with you. Usually when you least expect it.

Craig
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Paul O'Brien aka paulo
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Fri May 08, 2009 6:20 pm

If Billy went back to the scene of his many crimes he'd have never got out of the saddle.

I don't think Kip McKinney is a very reliable source.Tellingly Garrett did'nt inform him of what they were up to before they started out on the final pursuit.

McKinney told some Englishman whose name I can't recall but was prospecting in the West and wrote a book that they had tied and gagged Paulita and shot the Kid down from behind a sofa.

Maybe Pat never cut him in on the reward money!!!
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Fri May 08, 2009 6:34 pm

I used to know the name of the author and the title of the book that your referring to but for the life of me I can't remember it.I've always been told that Kip liked to drink and when he did his tongue got loose and he turned into a braggert and liar.I've never believed his scenario Pete would have never permitted them to use Paulita as Billy bait.That story was totally fictious.I'm with Marcelle I miss spell check (lol) if you read this Marcelle that is something that you could make better on here give us a spell check button. lol! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Fri May 08, 2009 9:16 pm

I don't know why people "blame" Billy for staying in the county. It was a sound plan, because despite all disadvantages he had the advantage of having friends, support and knowing the territory. Add to that the fact that he was a 21 years old "local star" who could often read his name in the local newspapers after his daring escape and that had plenty of girlfriends in the area. And on top of that he needed to get some money he could start with in a new life somewhere else anyway. So what was more sound that just take it "slow" instead of escaping in desperation?

IMO Billy's plan was to hide out some weeks, let things cool off, raise some money or find a (girl-)friend to come with him and then leave the county. But he got lazy and too attached to his new "unemployment"-lifestyle...lost his guard...the rest is history.
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Sat May 09, 2009 3:31 am

Bronte wrote:
I used to know the name of the author and the title of the book that your referring to but for the life of me I can't remember it.I've always been told that Kip liked to drink and when he did his tongue got loose and he turned into a braggert and liar.I've never believed his scenario Pete would have never permitted them to use Paulita as Billy bait.That story was totally fictious.I'm with Marcelle I miss spell check (lol) if you read this Marcelle that is something that you could make better on here give us a spell check button. lol! lol!

Oh I wish I could put a spell check here. That's one thing that's making lean towards going back to Proboards. I'm too spoiled to use a dictionary. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Sat May 09, 2009 3:35 am

Pippen wrote:
I don't know why people "blame" Billy for staying in the county. It was a sound plan, because despite all disadvantages he had the advantage of having friends, support and knowing the territory. Add to that the fact that he was a 21 years old "local star" who could often read his name in the local newspapers after his daring escape and that had plenty of girlfriends in the area. And on top of that he needed to get some money he could start with in a new life somewhere else anyway. So what was more sound that just take it "slow" instead of escaping in desperation?

IMO Billy's plan was to hide out some weeks, let things cool off, raise some money or find a (girl-)friend to come with him and then leave the county. But he got lazy and too attached to his new "unemployment"-lifestyle...lost his guard...the rest is history.

I agree!! I think Billy was laying low and waited to get money, and started to procrastinate leaving the area that was home to him and where he had friends. To ride off alone leaving New Mexico wasn't something he was probably looking forward to, but dreaded. He certainly underestimated Garrett and overestimated his safe haven in Fort Sumner.
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Sat May 09, 2009 1:36 pm

Fred Nolan points out in "The West of Billy the Kid" that this behavior on Billy’s part was a pattern. He did the same thing in Arizona…hanging around familiar territory even at some risk. It’s hard to tell what motivated him and perhaps dumb to try to analyze it, especially with 21’st century logic. I tend to agree with those of you who feel that it was a safe, familiar place where he had friends and knew how to navigate. Maybe youth and over confidence? Who knows.
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:13 am

Marcelle Brothers wrote:
Pippen wrote:
I don't know why people "blame" Billy for staying in the county. It was a sound plan, because despite all disadvantages he had the advantage of having friends, support and knowing the territory. Add to that the fact that he was a 21 years old "local star" who could often read his name in the local newspapers after his daring escape and that had plenty of girlfriends in the area. And on top of that he needed to get some money he could start with in a new life somewhere else anyway. So what was more sound that just take it "slow" instead of escaping in desperation?

IMO Billy's plan was to hide out some weeks, let things cool off, raise some money or find a (girl-)friend to come with him and then leave the county. But he got lazy and too attached to his new "unemployment"-lifestyle...lost his guard...the rest is history.

I agree!! I think Billy was laying low and waited to get money, and started to procrastinate leaving the area that was home to him and where he had friends. To ride off alone leaving New Mexico wasn't something he was probably looking forward to, but dreaded. He certainly underestimated Garrett and overestimated his safe haven in Fort Sumner.

I agree from my memory of reading about billy he was planning on getting some money together and leaving but didn,t quite get there.

He also said in his own words that Garrett couldn,t get him at fort sumner he had to many friend there he was over confident and payed for it he also didn,t realize that there were people at fort sumner smiling at him to his face and hating him behind his back.
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:15 am

Cliff Caldwell wrote:
Fred Nolan points out in "The West of Billy the Kid" that this behavior on Billy’s part was a pattern. He did the same thing in Arizona…hanging around familiar territory even at some risk. It’s hard to tell what motivated him and perhaps dumb to try to analyze it, especially with 21’st century logic. I tend to agree with those of you who feel that it was a safe, familiar place where he had friends and knew how to navigate. Maybe youth and over confidence? Who knows.

It,s a behavior you see to this day with crims they don,t leave the area they know and it,s for a lot of reasons even if they are bad people they still need company they like family and friends and lovers and they also need shelter and food.

It can,t be easy on the run.
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PostSubject: Re: not so smart after all   Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:22 am

[b] Howdy buckaroos...sorry I haven't been too active lately but here I am with my usual 2 cents worth....one thing all of you seemeed to have overlooked in Billy's reasoning for hanging out too long at Ft Sumner can be summed up in one word....PAULITA....young men don't always think with their head but with their heart or mmmm other parts as well...why else would he hang out in harm's way for so long.??....I'll betcha there ain't one of you guys that can't recall doing something completely out of character or worse for the sake of a quiereda!!
BTW, it's really good to see I've missed out on LOTS of activity

Happy trails
Dave
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